too much for the street? Do you like to go fast? It is the angle that separates the intake and exhaust lobe for a particular cylinder, and is measured in camshaft degrees. An RV or towing camshaft, which is considered a mild performance or an economy cam, will often have a narrower LSA, between 112 and 114 degrees. Tuning this cam would be slightly more difficult due to the reduced idle vacuum, but it is hard to argue with all the extra power. Engine builders Chuck Lawrence, left, and Doug Patton. The standard bore block was then stuffed with a 4340 forged steel 4.0-inch crank and 6.125-inch rods, along with a set of flat-top, forged JE pistons. 106 LSA: 106LSA results in a decrease in piston-to-valve clearance. Camshafts with a substantial overlapping tendency should not be used in vehicles driven on public streets. Well, I saw that Erson makes some nice hydraulic rollers with 108 LSAs, and I know that tighter LSAs have more midrange, so I thought they might be worth a try. Thanks for the replies so far. The taller lobe seperation will have a longer powerband but will have to rev higher to make the power than the lower lobe seperation! It is the average centerline between both lobes and expressed in degrees ranging from 95 on the extremely narrow/tight side to upward of 120 on the wide end. But it also has a lot of lobe separation. If two cams are identical with the exception of lobe separation angle (we'll say 108 and 114) the cam with 114LSA will make more low end power than the 108LSA cam? The final, 108-degree cam stepped power up even further, with peaks of 572 hp at 6,300 rpm and 544 lb-ft at 5,200 rpm. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. While most of our customers know what lift and duration are, most are unfamiliar with the term Lobe Center and how it affects the engines performance. The 110 is probably a better choice for a performance street engine. We do not stock profiles with 109 or 114 lobe centers. Frankly cams with a 108-114 lca unless in the perfect combo you won't usually see more than 15hp and you won't really feel the difference except for either a peaky or broad power band. However, a cam with 108 will only pull 12-16", which is not enough for power assisted accessories. Most cars use more than, Read More Does It Matter Which Ignition Coil Goes Where? Like one cam is 112 degree and the next is 108 the 108 cam will allow less "leakage"? "When you've properly tuned a performance motor, you create high- and low-pressure waves in the intake and exhaust that help cylinder filling," said Comp Cams' Billy Godbold. If all the specs remained the same what will going from a 110 to a 112 lsa do to driving characteristics? And better gas mileage. AquaTraction Vs SeaDek: Which One Is Better For you? Anybody do any real testing on LSA in a 3.75 stroke small block chevy?I have always used 104-106 and was thinking about trying a 108 or 110 design.I know there is a lot of variables but just a general opinion from any experts.This is for motor only no nitrous.600-640 HP engine combos.Much appreciated! [img]http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h291/downsideup09/DSCF2616-1.jpg[/img], [img]http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs139.snc1/5928_111214857139_110806152139_2127222_6826389_n.jpg[/img]. Part Number: HRS-CL120325-08. This wave tuning is what helps performance engines achieve volumetric efficiencies of more than 100 percent. It affects the amount of valve overlap; that is the brief period of time when both the intake and exhaust valves are open. If you compared these two cams side by side in identical engines, the first cam would actually have a slightly better idle and would produce slightly more peak power at upper RPM's. 106 LSA: The overlapping is higher as 106 LSA is comparatively tighter LSA than 110 LSA. = Extremely Tight . Another difference between the two involves the power curve. The intake air control valve (IAC), which regulates idle speed, also has to work overtime and often attempts to "catch" the idle, but usually shoots high or low. 110 LSA: But here, quite surprisingly, you have to face the reduction of the EGR effect due to the 110 LSA. Methods: We evaluated 30 individuals with PD (62.47.2 years) and 22 age-matched healthy controls (61.06.4 years). Nitrous engines, which make plenty of power and torque, often run wide lobe separation angles to moderate cylinder pressures and temperatures. 108 vs 112 lobe seperation. Also know as Lobe Separation; Lobe Center is simply the distance between the peak opening points on the Intake and Exhaust lobes. "It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got!" - Sheryl Crow. Well get out of that stocker and build a hipo motor for your VW. 110 LSA: Oppositely, the cylinder pressure is comparatively lower at 110 LSA than at 106 LSA. dur. Some of the programs like engine analyzer pro and dynomation seem to like some of the wider lsa's.Thanks again JOE. Its the shifting problem again with your Chevy! 10 Tuning the timing curve and fuel from the 42-lb/hr FAST injectors was handled by this Holley HP management system. Build your own custom newsletter with the content you love from EngineLabs, directly to your inbox, absolutely FREE! When choosing a cam, power gains shouldn't be the only consideration. To illustrate the differences offered by changes in the LSA, we had Crane cams grind us three cam profiles that shared the same lift and duration figures, but differed only in the LSA. I think you are asking a lot of a cam . The graph above compares intake valve closing points of the three cams used in the test. While a cam with a 108 lobe center will idle rougher. A good amount of idle vacuum or increased idle vacuum found at 110 LSA advances the engines efficiency. 110 LSA: On the other hand, 110 LSA is a wider LSA with almost no overlap. So, the 110 LSA engine is a suitable choice for people prone to be the fan of a powerful engine with mighty acceleration power. After spending 8 years in plant production engineering, Noah wanted to join Engine Addiction as a key member of all cars specific guides, reviews, repairs, suggestions, and more. Good luck. ( 2 ) Estimated Ship Date: Feb 23, 2023 (if ordered today) Drop Ship. Since we were only changing the lobe separation angle, we had to make sure every variable (air/fuel, timing, water, air, and oil temps) was identical during testing. Supercharged and nitrous race engines typically benefit from a wider LSA because they dont require as much overlap for exhaust scavenging as does the naturally aspirated engine, continues Bolander. Contrariwise, 106 LSA car engines are the best choice for people seeking energy-efficient cars with moderate engine power. He also enjoys reading books a lot and his favorite author is Paula Coelho. Not a HUGE, but a significant difference between 110 and 112, but those are the trends. LSA is the distance from the centerline of the intake lobe to the centerline of exhaust lobe. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. The 114 LSA is good for a blower or nitros motor. Cam and Lifters, Hydraulic Roller Tappet, Advertised Duration 282/288, Lift .589/.600, Chevy, Big Block, Kit. that is why people running 112 or 114 lobe centres retard the cam ,that way the exhaust event is back were it was before .this helps in exhaust valve tempatures--anyway today i talked too barry who is the owner of shadbolt cams and we talked about cam lobe centres -he considers 108 centre quite narrow and for a very narrow power band operation ,with a 112 he figures with the carbs with straight & even runs at the valves there should be no noticable loss of low end power, a 112 lobe would be a great choice for a great street strip motor -better lower torque followed with a flatter rising torque curve as well as rpm range extended 500-700 rpm -. If you shift at 7500-7800 add 4-6 degrees to both intake and exhaust and spread the lobe separation to 108-110. The stock valvesprings supplied with the CNC LS3 heads were swapped out in favor of a set of dual springs from Brian Tooley Racing. The other thing is that you need to tune your ignition advance to maximize your performance. by farmer Mon May 12, 2003 3:14 pm, Post The idle quality was better with the 112-degree LSA but not as good as the wider 120-degree cam.The ultra-wide 120-degree LSA lost low-speed power and never recovered, but know that this wide LSA is often beneficial on positive displacement, supercharged applications. The LSA, or lobe separation angle, is ground into the cam and cannot be changed. As a result of this fall, the idle of the engine has to face suffering quite often. Seeking 1/2" ID x 5/8" OD Black Exit Tubing for Radiator Overflow Reservoir. A wider lobe separation angle can often provide more power, but it can also lead to more wear on the engine. It really comes down to the application. 114LSA +4 puts the intake centerline at 110 degrees before top dead center. Lobe separations on 383-406 cids.104-106-108-110? I just installed a Comp Cams XE262 in a 9:1 350 with stock iron heads. Powerband serves a massive contribution to the acceleration car. However, finding them might be challenging if you dont have any prior knowledge. The 108 LSA offered the lowest idle vacuum of the three (down 4 inches). The 112-degree cam offered nearly all the low-speed and mid-range torque of the 108 cam but the peak power suffered above 5,200 rpm. Lobe separation angles, he continues, are influenced by the camshaft grind. But it is a piece of good news for your engine. When boost or nitrous are introduced, and engine builders contemplate choices between single-, dual- or reverse-pattern camshafts then the discussion gets muchmore technical. That means your engine can produce more power with a minimum amount of fuel combustion. An icon used to represent a menu that can be toggled by interacting with this icon. A forum community dedicated to hot rod owners and enthusiasts. Adding an aftermarket cam to an otherwise stock engine can boost output by 40-60 hp (or more) with no other changes (except possibly a valvespring upgrade). 106 LSA: The scale of efficient compression rises at 106 LSA. The lobe separation angle or LSA is the angle in camshaft degrees between the maximum lift points, or centerlines, of the intake and exhaust lobes. The lobe separation angle is the angle between the two camshaft lobes that act on the valves. But nothing comes without a cost, and idle vacuum suffers as LSA shrinks. 110 LSA: On the contrary, if you look at the powerband at 110 LSA, the powerband is comparatively broader. If identical and for a given displacement the 110 will give more power. Anybody here run a 108 LSA? It made 472.4 lb-ft at peak, a 21.5lb-ft disparity from the 101 cam. It had a robust powerband with tons of usable torque. While a cam with a 108 lobe center will idle rougher. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. I normally run a 106 to a 108 because I like the "hit" a tighter LC cam has when it come up on the came. This cam also offered the highest torque output at 4,000 rpm with 522 lb-ft. Based on the peak numbers alone you might be tempted to grab the one with the tightest (108-degree) LSA, but there is more to a cam test than power. LSA is a way of summing up the relative timing of the intake-valve events (intake opening, intake closing) to the exhaust-valve events (exhaust opening, exhaust closing) in relation to each other, and it's a great approximation of how the engine will operate. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Good cam for a lower rpm street engine. Cam swaps are all the rage and for good reason. The custom cams we selected all featured 0.624-inch lift (both intake and exhaust) and a 232/242-degree duration split. After the next three pulls, it was clear the 113 cam was way down on low-end torque. The Idles increasing vacuum improves the idle quality and the engines overall performance. Also, the wider LSA contributes to chassis stability in drag racing by avoiding the delivery of a ferocious blast of power that would break tire traction. I have used some cut on a 110 that worked well too, but they never sounded as good as the tight ones. We will also custom grind any of the above profiles with a custom lobe center, for an additional $20 dollars. The final cam was tighter still, with a 108-degree LSA. A 232 deg duration cam with a 108 deg LCA will have the same valve overlap as a 236 deg cam with a 110 deg LCA and idle will probably be very similar. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Disclaimer: Remember to always consult with an expert first before trying anything at home. by SStrokerAce Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:36 pm, Post True enough, the tight LSA improved power through the entire rev range, from 3,600 to 6,500 rpm, but the extra power came with a penalty in idle quality. I know a little about cams. music to your ears? The 114 cam will give more low end torque, good midrange, less power up high. If you're an OEM automaker looking for a steady idle, good fuel economy, and passing tailpipe emissions, this is the cam of choice. 108* or narrower lobe separation angle (LSA) is "Narrow" and 114* or wider (up to 117* or 120* for stock cams) is "Wide" , with 110 to 112* being the "normal" hot-rod cam. For large port heads like the CNC 044's which can use the extra lift 1.4's make a noticable difference. The 402 was run with a FAST LSXR LS3 intake and matching 102mm throttle body along with stock LS3 rockers, a Holley HP management system and 7.4-inch hardened pushrods (from Comp Cams). I don't think your duration figures are too outlandish and with the tight LCA and high lift, it should make some big torque. Engine builders Chuck Lawrence, left, and Doug Patton. Increased overlap improves upper RPM power. by flat4racer17 Mon May 12, 2003 1:40 pm, Post Next up was the 112-degree cam, which actually lost out in peak power slightly to the 120-degree cam, but offered considerably more torque. BUT, 114 will have more vacuum at idle, which will work better with some fuelinjection. Okay, have a sigh because you have opened the right door. 110 for sure. The result sounded wonderful, but it didnt rev as enthusiastically and it made 30 less horsepower than normal, says Lawrence. The engine will have weak performance in the low-end range.A low vacuum can also cause the brake pedal to be quite difficult to press. to use this representational knowledge to guide current and future action. 112 vs 114 lobe centers You cannot tell the differance in the two . No, it is not even close to the ultimate performance grind most would have picked. However, it is fixable. Because the lobes are closer together on the 101 LSA cam, the intake closing point is advanced (closes earlier) and the piston has more time to build compressionexactly what the gauge showed. The 114o lobe will add a lot more vacuum at idle. The 290 advertised duration and 114 lobe separation would contribute to a lazy power curve. Usually, an old gas tank is responsible for a vehicle bogging down during acceleration. Thats just the way the customer wants to roll, and engine builders find its easy to deliver such a powerplant. i have a 4 bolt 351C, stock bore, 10.5 cr with 351C Boss heads ,boss crank and rods. Lobe Separation Angle "LSA "Jump to Latest Follow 1 - 17 of 17 Posts . When you don't have any overlap, you can't have any wave tuning. Post 108: 110: 112: 114 . 110 LSA: On the contrary, 110LSA has a higher piston-to-valve clearance rate. After consulting with many experts, you are still in confusion between 106 and 110- lobe separation angles. 554"/577" lift. At a lower LSA, the engine reaches the peak of the torque earlier than the standard time but generates a lower RPM.On the contrary, at a higher LSA, the engine reaches the peak torque at a higher resistance level and generates a bulk number of RPM. Knife edged & profiled 4MA Cleveland crank weighing 50lbs. Check out the Comp Cams catalog, even the biggest hydraulic rollers use 110. LS Exhaust Manifold Bolt Torque (Everything You Need To Know), Holley Power Valve Sizes: Everything There is to Know. More over-simplifications: I'm sorry to disagree with that incredibly well written article, but lobe separation by itself is absolutely freaking meaningless. The only reason the advance or retard a camshaft profile is to get the timing events where they need to be. 106 LSA: At this LSA, the car machine has to confront the reduction of idle vacuum rate quite often. But that doesnt mean high-strung racing engines cant see gains, as well. 110 LSA: On the contrary, at 110 LSA, the engine fails to reach the maximum torque, resulting in a decrease in torque rate. It's the scavenging effect of the high velocity exhaust gases rushing out that pulls the fresh fuel/air charge into the chamber. probably just enough to get me in trouble.. 110 LSA) and Crane's #341191 (238/248, .563"/.587", 114 LSA), display considerably different characteristics. Well, there can be different reasons for this problem. There are General guidelines about the effects of LSA but it should not be the deciding factor in choosing a cam. Good cam for a lower rpm street engine. Turbochargers are not as simple as they may sound; you may think of them only as power-boosting components. 05 To ensure our stroker combo had sufficient airflow, we installed a set of Chevrolet Performance CNC-ported LS3 heads from Gandrud Chevrolet. Average power was also down, but the engine pulled ahead of the 101 cam at 5,400 rpm, picking up 6.5 hp at peak. Simply put, the lobe center of the camshaft controls where the power curve is applied. hydraboost is the same as a vacuum brakebooster, only the booster is replaced by a unit that does the same but under hydraulic pressure. Do you know what the best lobe separation angle for your car engine is? by SStrokerAce Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:22 am, Post This has been my long time understanding! A narrow, more specific power band is also a product of a narrow LSA, as is a lumpy idle qualityoften referred to as the 106 sound. You can research your heads to find out where yours are, but honestly I don't think it will be worth the effort on a tow vehicle. As usual, Marc (aka Master) is correct. You must log in or register to reply here. According to the Motortrend, LSA (Lobe Separation Angle) is a wonderful approximation of the operation of the engine because it takes into account the relative time of the intake-valve events (intake opening, intake closing) and the exhaust-valve events (exhaust opening, exhaust closing) concerning each other.Above mentioned sequential activities allow LSA to be an accurate representation of the operation of the engine. Chevy Transmission Wont Shift Into 3rd: Finding the Main Culprit, Yamaha Lower Unit Drain Plug Size [Explained Everything], Does It Matter Which Ignition Coil Goes Where? Lobe Separation or Lobe Centers is another way of expressing the Valve Overlap, which was the term formerly used by cam manufacturers before industry standard verbiage changed. You cannot look at just the LCA without looking at other specs too. They also reduce stress on the outdrive. In reality, a cam with 220 at 0.050" and a lobe center angle of 112 will have the exact same mechanical overlap as a cam with 217 at 0.050" and a lobe center angle of 109. Chuck Lawrence of Jon Kaase Racing Engines was asked to give a 520ci BBF a Pro Stock sound, so he went with a 108 LSA in place of a more conventional 112 LSA. LSA helps determine the cam's behavior; you can take a given set of lift and duration figures, change the LSA, and get cams with vastly different characteristics. But this is not the only reason. You get a better idle, vacuum, and response from a 112o-114o lobe. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. I'd run it, just be sure to check valve to piston clearance, coil bind and retainer to guide boss/seal clearance. so it is a solid flat tappet, torker intake, 1" 4-hole tapered spacer and 750 carb (QFT) transmission is a wide ratio toploader, rear is a 9" 3.89 geared 26"rear tires. by mrsmythe Mon May 12, 2003 11:15 am, Post On larger displacement units 116 to 118 degrees of separation are common. LSA CAM TEST-108 vs 112 vs 120 Richard Holdener 239K subscribers 168K views 2 years ago WESTECH PERFORMANCE GROUP FULL RESULTS-CHANGE ONLY LSA-LS CAM TEST. 106 LSA: There is an increasing chance of engine knock at the 106 lobe separation angle. Before getting to the cam profiles, we had to make sure we had a reasonable test engine. This recommendation is only if you shift at no more than 7000. But, after comparing these two LSA based on a few mechanical aspects, such as maximum Torque, RPM, powerband, oil consumption, and many more, you will find the 106 LSA with better performance output. 110 will be a bit punchier in the midrange and probalby make a little more peak horsepower as long as a good exhaust is used. by Hoxviii Mon May 12, 2003 7:50 pm, Post It may not display this or other websites correctly. It will have slightly higher vacuum at idle, feel smoother through the power curve but have a bit less midrange. In my opinion, the rougher the idle the better! by SStrokerAce Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:38 pm, Post Average power was also down, but the engine pulled ahead of the 101 cam at 5,400 rpm, picking up 6.5 hp at peak. These favorable mechanical features depict the powerful acceleration capacity of the engine with higher oil and energy consumption rate, overheating problems, and other mechanical problems. by jobes Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:51 pm, Post JavaScript is disabled. That notion is completely false. by mike thompson Tue May 13, 2003 4:03 am, Post But there is a drawback of higher cylinder pressure: higher cylinder pressure may sometimes lead to piston or piston ring problems. Here are the basics: higher lift values open the valves to increase airflow and longer duration keeps the valves open longer. Anybody do any real testing on LSA in a 3.75 stroke small block chevy?I have always used 104-106 and was thinking about trying a 108 or 110 design.I know there is a lot of variables but just a general opinion from any experts.This is for motor only no nitrous.600-640 HP engine combos.Much appreciated! The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. The higher the compression and the higher you try and rev it, the more it will like a wider lobe center. The ported heads were capable of supporting over 700 hp, so we knew they would not be restrictive on our stroker. So, you can enjoy a mighty acceleration power at 110 LSA. 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